S2 Ep 6 - Flying Blind: Candid Insights on Air Travel with the American Council of the Blind

What’s it really like to fly without sight? This episode offers a rare glimpse into air travel through the perspective of Scott Thornhill, Executive Director of the American Council of the Blind (ACB). Stay tuned because you’re about to explore air travel from a perspective few have experienced but all of us need to understand.

Scott dives into the ACB’s efforts to improve independence, security, and quality of life for blind and visually impaired people. As a frequent flyer himself, Scott gives us a raw, firsthand account of the challenges blind passengers face—from inaccessible booking systems and airport kiosks to inconsistent TSA support and the unique obstacles of in-flight safety.

We also explore the Airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of Rights, its alignment with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), and the road ahead for truly inclusive air travel. Scott shares powerful insights on the changes that could make flying more accessible, not just for the blind but for everyone.

Whether you’re an aviation professional or a champion of inclusive design and accessibility, this episode is chock-a-block with insights that will leave a lasting impression. Scott’s journey is a powerful call to action, reminding us that universal design isn’t just a goal for the future - it’s a change we needed long ago, one that can transform lives and open up the world for everyone.  

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Transcript

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. Even though it has been reviewed by a human, it may contain errors. Please review the audio for the episode and use that as the guide before quoting from this episode or transcript. This text may not be published online or distributed without written permission. Feel free to contact the team at ‘On your flight today’ with any questions.

On Your Flight Today – Season 2, Episode 6 – Flying Blind: Candid Insights on Air Travel with the American Council of the Blind (ACB)

Live Date: Nov 2024

Host: Corinne Streichert

Guest: Scott Thornhill, Executive Director, American Council of the Blind

[Introduction] What’s it really like to fly without sight? This episode offers a rare glimpse into air travel through the perspective of Scott Thornhill, Executive Director of the American Council of the Blind (ACB). Stay tuned because you’re about to explore air travel from a perspective few have experienced but all of us need to understand.

Scott dives into the ACB’s efforts to improve independence, security, and quality of life for blind and visually impaired people. As a frequent flyer himself, Scott gives us a raw, firsthand account of the challenges blind passengers face—from inaccessible booking systems and airport kiosks to inconsistent TSA support and the unique obstacles of in-flight safety.

We also explore the Airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of Rights, its alignment with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), and the road ahead for truly inclusive air travel. Scott shares powerful insights on the changes that could make flying more accessible, not just for the blind but for everyone.

Whether you’re an aviation professional or a champion of inclusive design and accessibility, this episode is chock-a-block with insights that will leave a lasting impression. Scott’s journey is a powerful call to action, reminding us that universal design isn’t just a goal for the future - it’s a change we needed long ago, one that can transform lives and open up the world for everyone.  Let’s go!

Corinne: Scott, thank you for joining us. How are you today?

Scott: I'm doing quite well. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Corinne: Really honoured to have you on the show, and I appreciate you taking the time to come and tell us about some of your experiences traveling. But just for my guests and for the audience, are you able to just give us a little bit of background about what you're currently doing and what your goals are in your new role?

Scott: Sure. I am the executive director of the American Council of the Blind (ACB), and we are a membership organization of approximately 8000 members across the United States and some international members as well. And, um, we have been around over 60 years. And so, for me, um, I've been working in the blindness field or the blindness industry, if you want to call it that, for, um, about six years now. And prior to that, I served on boards related to blindness organizations. And my wife and I have had a real estate brokerage for over 20 years. And, um, she continues to run that. And I've gone a bit of a different direction here with the non profit organizations and for the future we really are working to create a more level playing field for people who are blind and, um, for folks with blindness or low vision to be able to achieve the same things that, um, other individuals do, because we all, we all want many of the same things but we just get there a different way sometimes.

Corinne: Would you be able to share with us a little bit about your story in terms of your journey through sight? And, you know, as we'd spoken, you lost your sight?

Scott: Sure. Happy to. I was diagnosed at the age of eight, uh, with an eye disease called retinitis pigmentosa. It's a degenerative retinal disease. It's called RP for short. Thankfully for all of us. So, most people don't have to end up spelling it. But, um, but that RP diagnosis, um, meant that I got into seeing a number of doctors and, uh, was at Duke University. I center at that time. And, um, they were looking at options because they were doing a lot of research related to it. Unfortunately, there hasn't been a real. There's been a lot of work, a lot of trials, but not what you would call a cure, uh, to this point. But at the age of 15, I was told that the type of RP that I have, there are different types. I was told that I would be blind by 40, and I jokingly say I try to over-achieve. So I hit that around 36. But really, I met the definition of blindness well before that. And blindness is one of the disabilities that has a definition where many disabilities do not. But by 36, I really had lost all of what I would call sort of useful vision. Um, and at this point I only have light perception left so I can see bright light, uh, really bright light in my left eye, but not quite as bright. Doesn't have to be quite as bright in my right eye to see it. But I don't read, um, anything I don't. I use a screen reader on my computer. And so, um, that journey of getting a cane following that time and really in 2007 and getting a white cane and, um, getting around in that capacity and using a screen reader called JAWS - Job Access with Speech, um, and other tools like VoiceOver on my iPhone and some other things, bump dots on appliances in the in the kitchen of our home and in other places to help me locate particular buttons since flat screens have become so popular. But that's really been my journey, and it was really a 180 degree turn around that I had to do because I, I wanted nothing to do with the world of blindness. Didn't want to be that person, didn't want to admit it. But nothing I could do to change what was happening with the eye disease. And so, once I found myself in a position where I didn't have other options, I knew I had to get the skills and use the tools that were available. And here I am.

{Double Chime}

Corinne: What I'd really like to talk about, we know that, you know, there are a lot of challenges for people with disabilities, especially when it comes to transport. And I know that, you know, the ACB looks at all forms of transport and, you know, it's only one segment of your portfolio. I would like to focus particularly on air travel, but I do know that these challenges do extend way beyond that into other forms of transport. But when it comes to travelling by air, I know that you had shared earlier that you have travelled quite a bit. I believe, in your previous role. Are you able to give us some insights into your experiences travelling by air as a blind person?

Scott: Sure, sure. I'd be happy to. And I'm and I'm still traveling quite a bit in my in my new role as well. Maybe not quite as much. In 2019, I, I flew over 150 segments, which was was quite substantial, more than I'd probably done combined in my entire life. But, uh, um, and then 2020 was starting out the same way before, um, before the pandemic hit. But, um, but it's picked back up and I'm still not quite at that pace, but traveling pretty substantially. I'll really start, I think, I think really starting from the beginning, if you want to look at it that way. So even booking the flight. Right. So that's where website and app accessibility is very important, uh, for individuals who are blind or with low vision. And, frankly, sometimes the websites and the apps are not, uh, put together or tagged, as we would say, properly, so that when you, when you go into a particular item, for example, you're looking for your flight. And so you're putting in a city, right? Do you start by putting the first letter of the city, or is it a dropdown box where you have to choose the city, and if so, how easy does that work? You know, on the mobile version or on the, the, uh, the browser version, things like that. So that's where website and app accessibility and we're working on the UN legislation pertaining to that right now. But so you get your flight booked. 

{Double Chime}

Scott: Once you arrive at the airport you get to the curb. Usually I'm in an Uber, um, or maybe my wife or son takes me if it's coming from home, But I'm often in an Uber and you know, there are less. There's less support, I would say sort of outside of the airport. Now, some airports still have substantial, you know, help outside with bags or with assistance. But I do find often I'm going into the to the airport with my cane and a suitcase of my backpack, and I'm just hoping that I can find where I need to be. Um, but I get assistance to the gate, and so I will go to the counter of the airline and, um, and tell them, you know, check in. Basically, I check in on the app, assuming that I can. When they make changes, it's always a bit of a struggle to figure out the new way that an app is working. But, um, I'll still go to the counter to, to request the assistance, but then they'll assist through TSA. And I will tell you that one of the things that I run into is that, um, TSA a lot of times have not been trained really to they may have received training, but it may not be supported in terms of ongoing to work with individuals who are blind. And so I've had some I've had some experiences where they said, no, you can bring the cane through with you. And I always know what's going to happen. I'm going to take the cane through, but it's going to cause the detector to go off because it's made of titanium and it's. So they're going to have to check it anyway. Uh, so I often just go ahead and fold it up. I have a foldable canes. I'll just fold it up, put it in the bucket with my backpack. And I have PreCheck thankfully, so it makes it a little bit easier. But then the person assisting me, they'll get me in front of where I'm walking through, and the other person will reach a hand out. Um, I'm getting into some great detail here, but I'll tell you, you know, I ask them for both hands because otherwise I'm going to hit the side of the detector and it's going to go off. Uh, so, you know, I've learned how to navigate that after so many flights. And, um, you know, I, I also would, would just point out, you know, the kiosk experience can be very different with different airlines. Um, and so that's another place where accessibility is a key point. I did not mention, um, that earlier, but depending on how you're, how you're handling your, your boarding pass or if you are checking a bag, things along those lines, I try to avoid the kiosk if I can, uh, because some of them are just not nearly as accessible as they need to be, but it can vary from airline to airline as well.

Corinne: Interesting. So do you feel that potentially some standards with respect to airport experience across the different carriers would definitely bring some benefit?

Scott: Yeah, and there's work in that area that's going on. Um, there's, you know, the Air Carrier Accessibility Act that was done years ago. And there are there's new things happening, especially with service animals and things along those lines. I do not myself have a, um, a guide dog. People ask me that said, you have a dog. And I say, yes, I have a Labradoodle, but I only trust her to guide me to her food bowl. It's about the only place she would would guide me. But many of my colleagues, you know, do have a guide dog. And if you remember, a few years ago there was a big issue with bringing people, bringing what they were calling support animals onto flights and things along those lines. And it created a huge just a mess, frankly, for the airlines. And so now there's been a change in that. And but people are having to jump through hoops to get there to get their dogs essentially, you know, certified and, you know, attestations that are having to happen and different things. So there's, there's all kinds of work going on in that space. It's just a matter of of what goes through and what the costs are, because that's where the airlines tend to push back.

Corinne: So wow, that's some really great insight there. So you know, I just wanted to take a step back and let's look at the airport experience very quickly. So you're saying, if I understood correctly there seems to be with let's just look at TSA for the moment, inconsistency. There is evidence of training but it's not really consistent. So there could be every time you show up at the airport, it could be a different process.

Scott: That's correct. And I will tell you, in listening to a few articles that TSA agents are among, if not the least satisfied or happy federal workers, they're very close to the bottom of the list. They, uh, you know, coming in through the Patriot Act back after nine over 11 and all that happened there. Um, many of them, you know, the fallout percentage was incredibly high and many people didn't, didn't get raises for 15 to 18 years following their employment in that role. And so it falls very low on the on the rating system for federal employees and satisfaction. So I understand it's a very difficult job, and I try to thank them every time I go through, you know, thank you for what you do. Um, but I have learned to not necessarily listen when they say you can bring the cane through or, you know, I'll go ahead and fold it up because I know eventually it's going to have to get checked anyway. So I'd rather save that process and just put it through with everything else. So yes, I think there's there's training in the beginning, but then there's not necessarily ongoing or, or supported training. I would say continuing education.

{Double Chime}

Corinne: And now as we, you know, look at the inflight experience. Are you able to share so 150 flights. So they were predominantly domestic? And are you able to share which carriers you flew on?

Scott: Yeah predominantly actually they were all domestic. And um uh, Delta Airlines is one that I flew most uh, flew American some and a couple of others on a few flights. But Delta, for the large majority of those flights.  You know, as you get onto the flight, uh, you know, I board early boarding and get on early just so I don't hold other people up. Um, but, uh, you know, I often get, um, briefed before a flight, which is what's supposed to be done. But I can tell you from experience that it's often not the same briefing. Uh, I can get a very short briefing, which is, you know, where the exit is. You know where the bathroom is. You know, here's the call button is up here. And and other times, there's no briefing, uh, if they're in a hurry and trying to get the flight off. And then occasionally I'll get things along the lines of, you know, if there's an emergency, stay seated and I'll come get you from the flight attendant. To which I respond, you will not find me in this seat if there's an emergency.  I will, I'll be heading out with everybody else. Um, or my other favorite from, uh, from my own personal experiences. When they come to me and they say, uh, Mr. Thornhill, I have asked the passenger across the aisle from you to assist you in case of an emergency. And they have agreed. Um, and I always love that because I can again, jokingly, hopefully say, you know, that person could be a serial killer, for all I know. I didn't ask for that help. And, um, I've had colleagues of mine be asked if they had an able-bodied person with them. Um, so I've spoken to speaking to a gentleman recently who was who was at an establishment, and the security person asked him if he had a handler. Uh, so we get all kinds of questions related to, uh, not being fully capable of doing the things that that need to be done. But, but I will tell you, 99.9% of my experiences have been good ones. Even when I didn't get a briefing or whatever, I, I still, you know, people want to help. They just don't always know how to. And, you know, the airlines are responsible for funding the assistance. Um, those that assist at the airports and the airlines rightfully and their, their view of it, try to keep those costs down. And so sometimes there's not enough help and you can have longer waiting times. But but that's just part of the process. So.

{Double Chime}

Corinne: So I just wanted to talk a little bit about the Americans with Disabilities Act. So not here to get political or anything like that. I think, you know, just trying to understand how it has evolved and the changes. Last year there was the airline Passengers with Disabilities Bill of Rights that was issued. Now, again, not wanting to get political, but to me, it just after looking at that, it just looked like a summary of the actual act itself and made me wonder, is it overly complex that a win is considered just summarizing the act? I guess, are you able to give us some insight into how those changes or how that summary, which I see it as a summary, correct me if I'm wrong, how it was received within the community?

Scott: And I agree with you to a summary would be a good way of categorizing that I, we, um, we celebrate small victories in the, in the disability community, whatever that might be. And so, you know, even with the summary of bringing something maybe back to the top of the inbox, so to speak, um, getting it in front of, of individuals, whether it be executives, uh, with the airlines or it's, um, other individuals that that help with these, um, particular issues, I can tell you that so much of this is, is, um, compartmentalized is how I would put it. So, you've got, you've got the airport itself, often run by an airport authority or something along those lines, right? Because often it's the municipality that owns it, or the state or however it might be set up. But then you also have, you know, the individual airlines that are operating out of that airport, and then you have the third parties that they bring in for to assist, for example, people with disabilities or to do other things around the airport. And so, from, from my standpoint, as we look at those changes and, and, um, how things are received or perceived by the disability community, we don't always speak with one voice in the disability community. Even within the blindness field, we don't all have the same outlook on certain things. Okay? And we and we, we we won't because we're all individuals. And then we come together in, in organizations. But we can still have a difference of, uh, difference of opinion about certain things. You know, many, um, disabled individuals, most, I would say, want to have a obviously a positive experience and be able to do the things that other people do. Um, through an airport or anywhere else. And so I do think that that legislation and the way that, that it's done, um, in many cases seeks to do that. I think the key is that the legislators, the, the airports, the airlines, and they are doing this, uh, engaging individuals with disabilities, actually speaking with us, as opposed to sort of telling us what they think is best for us. Um, just recently, you know, I was contacted by an organization that was that was seeking to actually do a flight with, you know, individuals who are are blind, sort of see what their in-flight experience is like. Um, and so we had one of our, one of our staff members do that, and, and, um, you know, I think there's a lot of work, um, whether it be from, you know, obviously with the ADA, you know, physical buildings, you're talking about ramps, you're talking about curb cutouts, you're talking about those kinds of sliding doors. Right? Which is just a given. We just, you know, it's just a given that you're gonna have sliding doors, obviously, because you have suitcases and it's hard to open doors and things. So, there's there are things that have been in place for a long time, but accessible kiosks, um, being able to, um, you know, check your bag in that case or get a boarding pass and those kinds of things. Um, you know, that's where we're changing then getting into entertainment on in the flight. And, and there's a bit, a little bit of a difference, right, between sort of being able to access something like being able to get into the airport or being able to get onto the plane versus those other items that come up that might be considered comfort or, or, you know, extra items. So, um, there's a there's a lot of work and some are going in different directions in terms of where they're focusing. But at the end of the day, my hope is that right, we come together and the puzzle pieces fit. And, um, that experience just gets better and better. And it's different, obviously, for individuals who are blind versus someone who is mobility challenge. So in a wheelchair, because there's work being done in terms of the configuration of airlines and making sure that wheelchairs can, can go a certain distance, you know, through the through the plane itself and things along those lines and, and the, the bathrooms on the planes is another big area where it's very challenging for someone who's mobility, um, has mobility issues. So.

{Double Chime}

Corinne: We'd spoken before about your in-flight experience, but one thing that I thought was interesting that I really would not have ever thought of, was, I believe during pushback, there is a tendency to have a little bit of motion sickness - Would that be correct?

Scott: Yeah, yeah, I, um, I, I often will ask, you know, if I'm, if I'm traveling alone, you all ask the person sitting beside me, you know, are we, are we backing up right now. Because it does happen to me since I can't see out the window and and I mean, it can happen in a car as well. But, but it often is the case if I'm on a plane or happen to be on a boat or something, like, you know, where not being able to see the direction that I'm going, but I can feel that I'm moving. But, but it's it's hard to tell. So I, I do struggle with that occasionally, but but now I've come to realize that you do pretty much push push back every single time. Right. So so now I know that if I'm moving and we just started moving, more than likely I'm going backwards. So I just, I just, I kind of remind myself that I'm going backwards. Um, and then, you know, you feel the stop and then the, the move forward. But I will ask because it certainly can bring motion sickness. And, um, it is one of those things that a lot of people don't think about and, and just how, you know, little details. I don't know how the jet bridge is configured to the plane itself, right, that there's often a little bridge that comes over from the jet bridge to the plane, a little, you know, area to walk across and that sometimes elevated, and then you come down a little bit onto the plane, and sometimes the plane is not flush with that. And there may be a little step, but if you're on a small enough plane, I have to duck my head as well. And it's just things that other people have to deal with as well. I just can't see them. And so, I'm still trying to use my cane or, you know, and that it can get a little tricky. But that's why I board. I do that early boarding just so that have that time to do that and not have to rush um, in that scenario. But but yeah. So everything from, from that push back and the potential motion sickness to making sure about, you know, where the, the, the buttons are, I usually find the air conditioning first, uh, make sure I have that pointed the right, the right way towards me. But, uh, to your colleagues that are working on that in-flight experience, I will tell them, you know, stop making the seat smaller. Yeah, that's nothing to do with my blinders. But I will say start making the seats. Yeah, but, uh, but I understand the pressures there, but any any type of, uh, of aircraft is going to be different. A little bit different, uh, in terms of how that works, I always like to sit on an aisle just because it's easier and as close to the front as I can can get, just because that way I don't have to navigate. And, you know, I'll count the rows in many cases. And, um, they do do they do some things with putting the numbered seats and having some in cases, some Braille, um, maybe there and that kind of thing. But um, but yeah, the inflight experience for me, I'm people often ask me, how was your flight? And I'll just say, look, as long as I have just as many good landings as I have good take offs, then I feel like I'm things are going okay.

Corinne: So yeah, I think it's really the details. You know, as they say, the devil's in the details but.. 

Scott: Oh yeah it is. 

Corinne: … you did touch on Braille there. And we are seeing the emergence of Braille within the cabin. Now, I don't I'm just pulling up some figures in terms of braille usage.

Scott: Yeah. It's a, it's a, there's a bit of a I will tell you, there's a, there's some debate there. Um, in terms of how those numbers, uh, most people look at the percentage and think, well, a small percentage of people who are blind use Braille. Um, and that's kind of what the numbers. But but there are Braille users who would say that it's, you know, higher than what's sort of, um, sometimes put out through different research practices because it's hard to reach, um, a lot of individuals, especially older individuals who maybe don't respond on surveys or technology related items, but they use Braille. Um, I can also tell you, those who do use braille are passionate about Braille. And so, um, you know, we're working with different organizations, different companies, whether it be consumer products or, or other things and sort of the tactile, um, whether it's Braille or another form of a tactile notification that can go across the disability spectrum. So, for example, someone with a cognitive disability or otherwise, um, outside of the of, uh, the flying experience and more into, you know, bottles of consumer products and things like that. But inside the, the cabin, you know, certainly, uh, I'm often offered a braille, uh, you know, which I like a Braille copy of the safety information, um, things along those lines. So, I would say that, you know, the airlines are typically pretty good about, you know, offering those kinds of resources, um, if needed.

Corinne: So, I do know there's a couple of types of braille you've got contracted/uncontracted, which is correct me if I'm wrong letter by letter or word by word. Would that be correct?

Scott: Yeah, that's one way to look at it. And I think just because of the space that's involved in certain cases, um, you know, it will dictate sort of what's, what's used in that, that capacity. You can take a book that is, uh, let's say it's, it's written, um, you know, it's maybe a whatever, a 300-page book with normal, you know, print, uh, and put that in Braille and it's, it's going to be substantially larger. And so, Braille, you know, ends up taking more space. And of course, sometimes it can to, you know, depend on what's available. And inside the cabin, obviously space is at a premium, uh, as most people would realize. And so, there is that, you know, that issue as it relates to where is it most useful? The other thing about that is, right, there's training that has to be involved. So where are you going to put it? Well, it could be about the seats. It could be the, the the safety information for sure. Um, but where is someone going to know that they will find the braille, right. If it's in an obscure location, maybe people aren't, you know, feeling for that? Um, a lot of I know myself, I'll often just count the rows and kind of have an idea as to where I am. And I know the configuration. If there's three on each side, it's, you know, abc-def, whatever. But, um, other things inside the cabin that can really, you know, so for example, in the, in the safety briefing, they will say, and, you know, in case of an emergency, the floor lighting will light up, you know, follow the light, the floor lighting to depart the aircraft. Well, I can't see the floor lighting. No idea. Um, or, you know, put on your your vest and you're going to pull the red tab. Well, I, I'm not going to know where the red tab is. So I have had flight attendants come to me and let me feel the, you know, the oxygen mask that would drop down if necessary. Thankfully, that's the only time I've ever felt one, because I think if I was on a flight where they would drop down and anyway, that would be a whole other deal for me. But, um, but yeah, just just those things that aren't thought of, I will hear people often will say like, um, it's right over there, or you'll see this. And I, you know, quietly to myself, think, I don't know wherever there is. And and you will see is is a phrase that doesn't work for me. Um, and so you, you know, you will find in your seat back pocket this particular thing, whatever that might be. And, and there's just assumptions that are made and it's because it's, you know, it's a small, um, number of individuals who struggle with, you know, blindness. However, I will tell you, the numbers are increasing and it's something that everyone is going to really need to think about because the CDC is saying that in the next 15 years, we're probably going to see about a 50% increase in the number of individuals with vision challenges. And it has to do with the baby boomers, aging and age related, um, vision issues. And so this issue is not going away. Um, I wish I could say that it was, but, uh, it's going to continue to, to, to be something that that needs to be, um, looked at and, and in some way, um, increasing that accessibility in the whole process.

Corinne: Irrespective of the disability, we do have a bigger aging population. As we age our faculties tend to be impacted by that in different ways. So, it's something that I think as we travel a lot more than what we did 40 years ago. 

Scott: Yeah. 

Corinne: …And the cabin's changed. People have changed. And I think we also need to look forward that we need to be able to accommodate everybody. 

{Double Chime)

Corinne:  One thing you had mentioned earlier that in your community, there are a lot of voices. In working and talking to a lot of people within the inflight entertainment and connectivity industry, the industry that that I mainly focus on, initially, there were challenges in terms of, well, which group do we reach out to? And, you know, which is the preferred way of doing things? So, with these many voices, when it comes to your flight experience, everybody likes to have a personalized experience. And, you know, there are times that we have to kind of build or develop for the majority. 

Scott: That's right. 

Corinne: So in terms of having multiple voices within your community partnering, do you feel that we would be able to reach some type of standard?

Scott: Yeah I do.

Corinne: Or are there standards that you are working towards?

Scott: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, when you, for example, when you talk about service animals and, and primarily that would be, would be guide dogs, um, occasionally the miniature horse. Uh, but uh, but mainly guide dogs. But there's, there's agreement in a lot of that in terms of, you know, space for the service animal. So, you know, lying down and are you in a seat that allows for your, your dog to be able to lie down on the, on the floor at your feet or what does that look like? So regardless of, of which organization you're talking about, things along those lines, there's certainly, um, agreement there are some blindness organizations that that want or believe that the blind individual should be able to, you know, essentially navigate that airport independently. They don't need any help. They don't need someone assisting them to the gate. They don't need all of that. And that's fine. Um, for me personally, my approach is, look, you know, the airlines are really, you know, required to provide that assistance. And so, I want to utilize it because while I could probably find the gate eventually on my own, I really don't need that added stress, frankly. Um, and so I'll have someone assist me And, um, I can often teach them something if they haven't worked with someone who's blind because people again, training, uh, is an issue where many, many people, uh, it's gotten better in some places, but many people in those roles have not been trained. And they want to, you know, they'll say, I'll hold your hand. And I always respond with, you have to take me to dinner first. But but the but I really the best thing for anyone to do who wants to assist, whether this is someone who's at an airport and they're assisting someone who's blind or anyone in general, is just to say, how can I best assist you? And, you know, the individual may say, I don't care for any assistance or I don't need any assistance, or they'll do like I say. And I'll say, well, if you don't mind carrying my, you know, rolling my suitcase on your left side, I'll hold your right elbow or your right shoulder. I often do the shoulder because I'm very tall. And so, um, the elbow is fine. That's the typical way to do what's called ‘sighted guide’. But I do believe we can we can certainly, uh, have agreement on a lot of these things because once you get in the aircraft, you know, onto the aircraft. Um, there's, um, there's not a lot to me, you know, differences in how things are done. Now, I will say there are those who would say, you know, just because I'm blind doesn't mean I have to board early. Well, that's that's fine. I prefer to do it because it gives me more time. I don't have to rush. Um, and then others. Right. I'm not holding anyone else up in the, in the process. Um, and so there's, there's some small disagreements about things like that, but those are also personal choices that don't affect the overall way that the airline operates. Um, and so I think most people would agree that, you know, once you get, you know, in your seat and you're getting a briefing or you're dealing with the materials, as long as they are offered in a way that can be accessed by someone who's blind, uh, or the information is stated to them verbally to the extent that it needs to be. Uh, I think that's all those places we can agree on. So.

Corinne: Okay. Interesting. Because, you know, I was thinking just going back to the Braille. so the English language uses the Latin alphabet. Now, when you think of it from an airline perspective, like you've said, you're flying Delta, an American. They do fly internationally. So when they're creating and developing their products, they're developing it for an international audience. I've worked in in-flight entertainment for many, many years, and we often translated into many languages and not all used a Latin alphabet. So, for airlines looking at adding some braille onto the aircraft, are there any differences in braille across different languages, or does it still all boil down to the type of alphabet, whether it's a Latin alphabet or, you know, for example, like Arabic right to left instead of left to right and so is Hebrew.

Scott: There could be there could definitely be some differences there. And how people are taught Braille and also which language they're being taught. And just as there are with, you know, sign language is different as well. And people don't realize that that's that's country by country, um, as opposed to language. But there can be some differences. I would say that that really the country of origin more than likely is going to be, um, you know, what would be utilized. I think if an airline is primarily working in a particular, you know, um, area of the world or originates in a particular location, that they should focus on that being their, um, their use of what braille or language that their materials are in, those kinds of things that, that that's, that's really you can't expect that they're going to have necessarily materials and, you know, every potential language that someone on that flight is going to be, um, using from a Braille standpoint or from a, um, from a written standpoint. You know, I just recently on a flight and I had not thought about this. I people were in the exit row and of course, the flight attendant asked them to two rows actually in the flight attendant asked them and went through the whole thing and told them what would be expected of them and said, I have to have a verbal answer from each of you. And I've heard that said before, I have to have a verbal answer from each of you. Right. And so they. Yes, yes, yes, all the way down, you know. Yes, yes. And and then she explained it and I had never heard it. And I was sitting in front of them actually, and they said, she said we have to do that because you could speak a different language than I speak, and you may not understand what I just said. And if you just nod your head or if you whatever, you know, I need to know that you understood and and also, you know, potentially the individual could be, you know, could be deaf and may not have things along those lines. Right. And I didn't think of that. And I work in the, in this area. And so, I think that the airlines as it relates to Braille, as it relates to how they provide other materials, all of those things, um, there's a point at which, right, we want the individualized experience, but you can only make it so individual. Um, and I do think that that travelers certainly have to be reasonable. Um, as it relates to. Okay, this is, um, you know, what the airline is capable of doing and that this airline originates in this, you know, from this country or whatever it might be. So, 

{Double Chime}

Scott: You know, we spoke, as you mentioned briefly, about the in-flight entertainment and the work that you've done there. I would say, you know, being able to access that, um, and often with audio description, you know, which we've, uh, we work a lot with at the American Council of the blind, the audio description project. I think having those entertainment options and ensuring that they have audio description because not everything does have audio description, of course. So ensuring that what they offer has audio description and in multiple languages is something that certainly can be done. So that's one area where where it can be done. I say fairly easily, but that's a place where you can cater to more, uh, more individuals as it relates to language or how they might access information.

Corinne: Yeah, when it comes to in-flight entertainment, we are seeing progress in terms of making in-flight entertainment, particularly seatback in-flight entertainment. So yeah, let's embed on the aircraft. We are seeing progress, advancements in making that more accessible. As I mentioned, you know, I worked on that many years ago at United, and I believe one of your board members as well, Mr. Ray Campbell, right, was, you know, also involved. And yeah, we were thrilled to have him working with us on that project and gave us some really, really great insights. And my biggest takeaway from the work that I had done just a few years ago in that space is, it never stops. You know, you're always learning, you're always looking to improve it, technologies changing. So you said you've flown predominantly Delta American. So I'm assuming you haven't had an opportunity to try out the United seatback system?

Scott: I have not tried the United seatback system, I have not I and I am I'm one of those individuals who I. I'll, um, you know, I'll, I'll download a movie on my phone from Netflix or something like that. Right. So when I get on the flight, I'll, I don't have to necessarily try to navigate what's, what's what's there, but I certainly do on occasion. And, and so, um, it is a complaint that that many of my colleagues have, which is it's great that there's audio description on these movies, but if I can't get to them and and so I know United is doing a lot of and I know other airlines are, are working on it and attempting to get it. We often have to ask, you know, our, our seatmate, uh, neighbor to assist with something or a flight attendant to assist with that. And so, um, being able to, um, you know, with the audio description for me, obviously, you know, you plug the headset in and, and, you know, I'm just going to listen to it. I can't see it anyway. So as long as that, you know, the volume, especially on certain aircraft which make more noise than others and, and things like that. That audio description is super important, but but no, an answer to the United question. I have not. And please don't tell Ray I need to. I need to, uh, I need to experience the, uh, the United system.

Corinne: All the vendors within this space are working on accessible IFE solutions to cater for people with, you know, different disabilities in the hearing impaired community as well. You know, looking at options for closed captioning in those features to help them consume the content. But from a user experience perspective, that was one of the, you know, the biggest kind of challenges that we had found was that some people wanted to be able to enable it and use it on their own. Others didn't, you know, wanted assistance from the flight attendant to switch it on or the person sitting next to them. So, there was those differing of opinions, and the approach that we took at the time was, let's build both options. Whether the flight attendant switches it on for you or whether you can do it yourself. And then we proceeded to develop some gestures. So. But this is something I wanted to touch on, you know, quite quickly in terms of the gestures. So, part of our research at the time we were developing that we looked at, okay, well, what's kind of leading the way when it comes to to gestures and obviously personal devices, they're all throughout the community. Everybody's got one. And they do have they have made some really great advancements in accessibility on both the Android and the iPhone. Now we had to look at, okay, well, what are the common gestures? And there were some that we needed to create specifically for the cabin. Again, I just want to say that, you know, we we don't always get it right. It's trial and error feedback, you know, reiterate and do all of that. But there were different gestures that we had to kind of go with, okay, these are the ones we're going with. Now one challenge that we're finding, because we do have a few players in this industry that are developing these solutions. Something that I've been mindful of and championing for is consistency in the gestures, because we know, you know, Android versus iPhone, they call things slightly differently. It might be slightly different. And then we've implemented our own flavour of it to accommodate the in-cabin, the inflight environment. So do you feel that getting consistency just in some of those areas, like for example, you might fly Delta to one part and then connect with United, then potentially go overseas and connect with say, Qantas or British Airways or, you know, one of those airlines.

Scott: Yeah. You know the the consistency or a standard is something that we're really working on in so many different areas. I um, we've had calls recently with, with consumer goods organisations like I was mentioning earlier about tactile options. And so you have one that's looking at a tactile more than one that are looking at tactile options. And then you have others who are looking at accessible QR codes for example. So, so they are putting accessible QR codes on their on their bottles. And another one is putting, uh, two lines for shampoo and three lines for conditioner or whatever it might be. And so trying to bring those groups, those organizations together, those companies, many of them are looking at, of course, the costs that are involved. Right. Are we building a new mold for these things? And it relates a little differently in the airline industry where, where it may be, you know, is it a configuration or a programming issue on a, on a, on a unit, you know, a seat back unit or whatever, whatever might be involved there? And I'm not going to pretend that I know all of the details of how those things are done. But I do think that whether, you know, it's a swipe or it's a triple tap or it's a whatever it might be that that those things could be made consistent without, in my opinion, harming the the quality of the product. Um, you know, I've run into those things even with taxis in New York City and other places, right? If you triple tap, you're supposed to supposed to talk to you. Well, I can tell you, there's a lot of cabs in New York City where triple tapping gets, you know, talking. Uh, so, so I think that's another thing as well. Right. And people would say, I've heard the announcement. Right. If you're, if you're, if you're entertainment system is not working, please let a flight attendant know, you know, something along those lines. And, and so for me, I mean, you know, I could sit there and, you know, I could triple tap it, I could swipe it, I could do all these things to it. But if I don't know which one that one is using. So a standard or consistency would be fabulous. But but the the issue becomes those organizations getting together and determining… just like the disability organizations getting together and saying this is what would work best, um, for our communities. And there's a lot of challenges in both of those areas for the airlines to do it and for the disability groups to do it, because a lot of individuals who are blind, frankly, we are finding you have multiple disabilities. So they may have, you know, a cognitive disability or they may have, you know, the anyway, there's there's a number of issues there. And I just… my hope is that we just keep whatever moving forward looks like in a certain case that we keep moving forward and we and we don't sort of throw our hands up in the air about certain elements of, of, of these issues that we keep working through them because there are answers. And I, I talked to companies a lot, about approximately 20% of the population has a disability of some sort, based on a lot of statistics that are out there, research that's out there. And so, if you it's not just sort of the right thing to do to work towards these goals, it's it's really good for business. Yeah. And so if, if I'm telling friends of mine that a particular airline is the way to go, like this is the best way because they have their customer service is the best and they handle things properly and they make sure then I'm probably going to have colleagues that are going to say, well, that's that's where I'd like to who I want to fly with, or if I have a company that does something else really well and I recommend them, it gets through a disability community very quickly in terms of word of mouth, one way or the other. Good or bad. And so I do think a standard would be fabulous. And then the question would be, is the communication of that standard or that consistency so that people know this is what I can expect when I'm, when I'm on a flight. And um, to me, I would think that would be because frankly, going from again and I keep bringing it back to the consumer because only because it's something that a lot of people can relate to is, is if you have two lines on a bottle versus an accessible QR code. Well, I got to find that QR code. I've got a right, make sure my phone can find it, and it's or the tactile could be right there so that I can feel it regardless. And so it's the same for me in a, in a, in a flight experience, like the button, for example, the call button. Something simple, right. Is it a flat thing that you push and I'm not going to know or is it's, you know, is it a bump that's sticking out that I can tell? Okay. You know, I can press this. And same idea with the with the seatback entertainment systems, you know, are they Um. Is it flat screen where I'm tapping on the screen, or are they, are they buttons where I can, you know, tactile? I can have a tactile experience and feeling them. So there's all kinds of, of details like that that I think need to be incorporated into whatever solution is, uh, come up with.

{Double Chime}

Scott: Scott thank you for joining us. It's been really insightful. I appreciate you sharing your experiences and talking more about this. I think we do need to keep having conversations to help advance and progresse accessibility. So, if any of our listeners would like to reach out to you with any questions or get any guidance or potentially partner with your organization for support, what's the best way for them to reach out to you?

Scott: They can absolutely go to ACB.org . Um, we've got a lot of information there. They can contact us through there. Um, we have our email, um, addresses there as well. If someone would like to email me and, uh, I'm happy to respond and have a conversation and really help in any way I can because it, uh, it certainly doesn't just benefit me as a, as a representing over 8000 members just in ACB. And of course, there's many more than that, um, around the United States. Uh, we're excited for the changes and the efforts that are being made. So I'd love for anyone to reach out that has an interest in talking about these things further. And thank you.

Corinne: Thank you so much again for joining us today. You know, as technology moves and things start to happen, you know, progress. I'd love to have you back on the show to talk about it.

Scott: I'd love it. Maybe when we get back together, who knows? Maybe we'll have AI flight attendants and AI pilots and, uh. Right. They'll just deliver the, they'll deliver the cocktails right down the middle aisle, you know, on a robot or something.

Corinne: So they're doing that in some hotels in Vegas, I've seen.

Scott: What happens in Vegas. Stays in Vegas. {laugh)

Corinne: At the moment. Yeah. {laugh}

Scott: Thank you.

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