S1 Ep5 - 2023 Crystal Cabin Awards shortlist highlights, themes and trends - Special Edition

Welcome to this special edition of the On Your Flight Today podcast. Today, I am thrilled to be joined by Lukas Kaestner, Head of Marketing, PR & Events from Hamburg Aviation. Lukas is also the President of the Crystal Cabin Awards Association and he is returning to the show today to talk with me about some of the innovation highlights, themes and trends we see emerging from this year’s Crystal Cabin Awards shortlist that was just announced earlier today from Hamburg Germany. 

Lukas will also provide some insight into the initial screening of entries and the preselection process that generates the shortlist for a panel of around 30 experts from all areas of aircraft interiors to evaluate.  

Our special edition episode will give listeners an exclusive glimpse into the exciting developments that are shaping the future of aircraft cabin interiors and passenger experience. 

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This episode of On Your Flight Today is brought to you by IFECtiv, an inflight entertainment and connectivity consulting company. Dedicated to elevating the aviation industry's inflight entertainment products and experiences for airlines and suppliers. Visit www.IFECtiv.aero to learn more!

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Disclaimer

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Transcript

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. Even though it has been reviewed by a human, it may contain errors. Please review the audio for the episode and use that as the guide before quoting from this episode or transcript. This text may not be published online or distributed without written permission. Feel free to contact the team at ‘On your flight today’ with any questions.

On Your Flight Today – Season 1, Episode 5 - Special Edition – 2023 CCAA Shortlist

Recorded: 10 Mar 2023 | Live Date: 13 Mar 2023

Host: Corinne Streichert

Guest: Lukas Kaestner, Head of Marketing, PR & Events – Hamburg Aviation, President, Crystal Cabin Award Association 

[Introduction] Welcome to this special edition of the On Your Flight Today podcast.  My name is Corinne Streichert and I’m your host.  Today, I am thrilled to be joined by Lukas Kaestner, Head of Marketing, PR & Events from Hamburg Aviation. Lukas is also the President of the Crystal Cabin Awards Association, and he is returning to the show today to talk with me about some of the innovation highlights, themes and trends we see emerging from this year’s Crystal Cabin Awards shortlist that was just announced earlier today from Hamburg Germany. Lukas will also provide some insight into the initial screening of entries and the preselection process that generates the shortlist for a panel of around 30 experts from all areas of aircraft interiors to evaluate. Our special edition episode will give listeners an exclusive glimpse into the exciting developments that are shaping the future of aircraft cabin interiors and passenger experience. 

[Corinne]:  Lukas, thank you for joining us. Exciting time of year and I'm thrilled to have you on the show to talk about, an announcement which isn't live yet, but this episode will air soon after you make your big announcement. 

[Lukas]:  Absolutely!

[Corinne]:  The shortlist for the 2023 Crystal Cabin. So, I guess just for our listeners, could you just give us a quick recap of the award and the process that you've had to date? I know you're previously a guest on the show and we were talking about tips on entries, but I think it could really enlighten our audiences what has happened since then.

[Lukas]:  Yes, absolutely. So, the Crystal Cabin Award is the world's leading prize for aircraft interiors and passenger experience. It is being awarded in eight categories every year. And this is done at the Aircraft Interiors Expo in Hamburg, the leading trade show, which comes to town here once a year. So, we are based in Hamburg as the Project office. It was initiated by the Hamburg Aviation Network Organization in 2006 already and the first awards were being given out in 2007, and since then it has really, really grown like the interior segment, like the passenger experience segment along with it. And it's really become a place where we not only see entries, innovations by suppliers, but also by the big OEMs, by airlines, by design offices, by students from universities, from all over the world. It's grown into a really big community which is being recognized also globally, not only within the industry, but also by big media outlets like CNN and BBC. So, it's great to see that people care for passenger experience even if they're not in the industry. We have this award running once a year basically in the eight categories, and we look for the breakthrough innovations or just the key trends in that segment every year to, that push the industry forward. It's a lot of fun to be part of it actually.

[Corinne]:  Yeah. And I'm quite excited to have seen the shortlist and you know as part of the the jury starting to review the applications, it's very exciting time of year for me. Absolutely love it, to see the innovation, but really some interesting themes coming through. But before we get into some of the trends that we're seeing with some of the entries, so there's a pre-selection process that happens once a company or a student submits their application, then there's a lot of work that happens before the shortlist is announced. Are you able to give us some insight into this process that happens after the submission up into the shortlist?

[Lukas]:  Yes, absolutely. So, before we get to the shortlist, as you mentioned, we have a pre-selection committee, which is basically a group that comes together after the submission period has closed, partly brought together by the Project office. It's me and my colleagues, my team members and then some selected veteran members of the judging panel. And what we do there, we don't start judging yet. All we look at is, you know, are these entries innovative enough to qualify for the Crystal Cabin Awards as a baseline? If somebody just enters, for example, a seat which has been entered before and now he's only placed it with airline X, Y, then it will not go through because, you know, there needs to be some novelty around the concept. So, this is kind of what we look for. Has this entry been seen at the Crystal Cabin Awards before by that company? Is this just a very marginal step forward or have they really done something further? And we also look at if that entry is in the right category, because we do have these eight categories and evidently, it's easier for the, for the student entries because there is only University category. But sometimes we also move entries to other categories,  and because we as a committee feel that this just fits better into the pitch and the message the entrant has provided with that product. So, it's basically sorting everything that has come to our inbox and making the judging easier for you as judges because, you know, with almost 30 judges and this year, again, we have over 80 entries in the shortlist. It's a complex process, you know, which takes some time and you really appreciate all the extra-curricular work that the judges do. So, we want to make it a little easier to sort the categories and do the judging them.

[Corinne]:  Yeah, thank you for sharing that insight. It is quite an involved process and I think having that experience on the Pre-selection, the ones that have been doing this for many, many years, have seen all these ideas come through. They're able to, you know, sift through that very, very quickly. One thing I wanted to touch on just as I started a brief review, one thing that I've noticed that there was an actual entry from a university student that was an adaptation of an entry last year. So, I guess is that something just to clarify for our listeners.. Obviously, you know, people are seeing these innovations and even myself, as I read through some of them, it's sparking ideas. Is there a process around adaptations of previous entries or existing innovations?

[Lukas]:  So normally adaptations are not what we're looking for at the Crystal Cabin Awards. However, we will be a bit easier in the University category on the entrants. Also, in terms of creativity, if you put it like this, because we want to encourage young people to put a foot into the door of the passenger experience industry. It's a segment that, like any other part of aviation, will need young engineers, young designers, young people to connect with the industry already at university already and during college, and be creative and think of how to do the passenger experience of tomorrow. So, this is basically the platform we want to build and encouraging people to submit their ideas and just share them with the, with the judging panel, with these experts from all over the world and all parts of the industry. So that's why we are usually a bit easier on that. But we've had an issue before and I think two years ago where we did, for example, not let an adaptation in the university category go through. There was a big discussion in the pre-selection committee actually about this one entry, and then we eventually decided against this. So, it's still a process where we will look at and, and really discuss with this decision made. You know, it's really up to the judges then to do the judgment on how creative and how interesting that adaptation is compared to, to other entries or the development that they see with, with this entrant institution or the student itself. So, it's always interesting to see how this translates into the actual points being given, then in the judging process.

[Corinne]:  I think it's a great idea that obviously there is a criteria that that is followed, but having that flexibility, because one thing I think that's really interesting with the University category, which I've said is one of my favorite, aside from obviously IFEC and Digital services, but having that flexibility because these students, as I've said before, they come into this industry fresh eyed and sometimes they might see an entry and think, great idea, but they've got it all wrong. We know this new technology can do this ten times better. So, I think that's great that there is that flexibility. But obviously there has to be rules around it and it has to be innovative. Thank you for the insights into the pre-selection and the upcoming announcement of the shortlist. 

{Double chime sound}

[Corinne]:  I've looked at some of the categories at a high level. And just to clarify for the audience and everybody, I've only looked at the information that has been supplied for publicity. I have not looked at any of the specs, any of the technical innovations behind it, just the information that has been released or will be released publicly. So, I didn't want my thoughts to be influenced at this stage as we talk about it and just being able to have a discussion with you to get some idea of, you know, what we're seeing as trends and some themes coming out of the applications based on the publicly released available information on the product at this stage. So, I guess over to you, Lucas. I know you've been really busy, but you've been involved in this process. What are some of the high-level themes that you're seeing?

[Lukas]:  I think a major theme that we're seeing is that passenger related or eve,n even crew related products are coming back. You know, this might sound weird because we're all about innovations in the cabin. So, you know, what's the novelty here? But we have to see that we're coming from a huge valley of tears with the COVID pandemic, where we saw a lot of projects being killed, where we saw a lot of airlines struggling to even survive and being busy in other segments. Then, you know, thinking about their cabin product and their passenger product. And of course, we've seen a lot of entries in past years for products and concepts circling around health and hygiene and safety that respect. And what we're now seeing again, is that, you know, the cabin product is really coming back, that airlines are working together with their partners to upgrade their product offerings. There will be some very interesting innovations coming to the to the airline sphere. And this is probably connected to this, a lot of these are no longer concepts. They're going to be products that are going to be on the market soon. And we have big airlines among those like Lufthansa who just had their Allegris cabin relaunch with the wholly new first class with a double beds and seven different business class seats and everything under one umbrella brand. So, they're investing a lot. And we also see a lot of activity even in the economy segment, particularly interested in what Air New Zealand is planning with the so-called ‘Skynest’. They're going to add bunk beds in the economy class that you as a passenger can book for a couple of hours to stretch out and have a sleep before returning to your seat, you know, on a very ultra-long-haul route that Air New Zealand often flies. So, and this is actually true innovation in the passenger experience for economy class, which is not that frequent, to be honest, and to really have this quantum leap in the product offering. And regardless of whether this product will be economically successful and viable, from a business case perspective, it's really notable that Air New Zealand are really doing this now and saying, okay, let's try it out, let's install this and really bringing forward the economy class product. So, these activities is really something interesting that we see. From a crew operator perspective, what I really thought was interesting is that we have an entry from Diehl Aviation for crew rest compartment for the single aisle aircraft. So, for the A321 XLR, this is another trend that we will see soon. We will have more single aisle aircraft in the skies doing long haul flights when this is possible with the new A321 XLR, an aircraft that has previously not been on the market in this way. But there are a lot of questions or a lot of implications that arise for the cabin as well. You know, how do you create a room for the crew to have a break or to take a nap when you're not in a wide body where you don't have this crew rest space that you usually would have? And how do you create a cabin product, especially in the, in the premium segment, that offers the same comfort, the same quality, regardless of whether you're flying in a Dreamliner or even an A380 or an A321 XLR. And there are some airlines like American Airlines, which have also entered their ideas for this in the shortlist that will have huge fleets from big wide bodies to the new A321, and the passenger wants to have the same relatable product, the same comfort, you know, no matter which aircraft he flies on. So, this is kind of a tricky question for the airlines and for the suppliers, to, how to replicate the comfort you have in the widebody to the to the singular aircraft. And this is definitely a trend which is also visible within the Crystal Cabin Awards.

[Corinne]:  Yeah, and that is, its consistency, I think really is the key and I think airlines are starting to recognize the importance of that for their passenger experience. There's so many benefits and even operationally to manage that. So that does make a lot of sense. But yeah, some interesting things. One thing I noticed and you know, correct me if you, if you think I'm wrong, this is just an initial first look. As I went through these very quickly, I was starting to see trends in family sitting together, obviously in the cabin related designs and seating designs, which has the ability, I think, to allow for sleeping, but more so in terms of the premium, the retreat products where you can have a family of 2 or 4. There was one with a table, one with a four seat, and I think there was one also coming from a student that had that concept. I'm wondering that need to, and there was actually one entry where it had its own specific cabin. So interesting to see those concepts of families traveling together. You know, recently in the US there's been a lot of news about children being able to sit with parents and airlines, starting to make those changes, you know, allowing that to happen without fees. So interesting to see these kinds of concepts coming up in cabins. What are your thoughts on that?

[Lukas]:  I think this is a very important topic, and I think this is something where a lot of innovation can still happen and where people will be willing to probably also pay a premium not for, you know, I want to sit together with my toddler because this should be common sense. But, in terms of being able to have some space for the family within the cabin and, you know, in the larger scale, this is what we've seen with premium economy being very successful in the long-haul market, that people are willing to pay more even on the leisure travel flight to to have some extra comfort. And this is, I think, reflected when it comes to the space that the families take on board. People are also looking at, you know, how can I make the flight more comfortable for my family? But also, to me, I mean, I have a personal opinion on this because I also have two little kids. And, you know, even though I like flying normally because I'm part of this industry and I love it, doing this with the kids is dreadful, you know, because you're squeezed into this little tube and, you know, the kids get bored and, you know, then what do you do? So I think this is a very to me at least, it's a very relatable topic to really create a product segment of, of upselling other aspects into this. And I'd be happy to, to do this if I had the choice on board. And I think this increased flexibility for different traveller categories is really something that and the family aspect belongs into. It's really something that we see. It's also if you look at the Lufthansa Egress Lounge with a seven different business class seats that also goes into this idea of creating more flexibility within the product so that the traveller can really pick, you know, what he or she needs and what fits best to their journey that they want to take. And this fragmentation is something we see in other aspects of the cabin as well.

[Corinne]:  Yeah. Another thing that I'm really happy to see is accessibility. Quick glance, I think that was about 4 or 5 that were really offering some accessible solutions, you know, for passengers with disabilities or those that need extra assistance. And it wasn't unique to kind of any particular product. It was like across the whole cabin, across the whole, you know, aircraft on board experience. And I did see that from some of the university students. And I think it gave me a lot of comfort to know that the next generation behind me has accessibility first and foremost in their minds as well. Did you notice that trend in accessibility as you were looking through the applications?

[Lukas]:  We did, and I think this trend has been visible for a couple of years now that people are really looking into these aspects. And what I also thought was really interesting, we had a lot of university entries circling around this aspect as well, even in the past years. So this is apparently an issue that also a lot of the younger people are looking into already as they study at university. And I think this is a very, very good development. You know, that at an early age, even before working in the industry for a living, when they're still at university, they are starting to think about these aspects of accessibility and, you know, flexibility. And I think when you start at this age already, you know, it will stay part of your mindset as you continue through your career. And I think this is an important aspect for not only the industry but for the entire society, especially as you look with the demographics in the world, people will get more and more demanding, as travellers simply because of the changing demographics. And we will have more elderly people travelling in the future than we have had in the past and they will have their  needs and demands as well, which the airlines will need to match. And as mentioned, family’s leisure travel is picking up quite well again after the pandemic. So, all these aspects come into play and I think it's good to see the industry responding to this.

[Corinne]:  Seeing a lot of entries with a lot of inflight entertainment and connectivity solutions. I think one of the hot topics is connectivity, satellite connectivity and the various forms of that. So, I thought that was quite interesting to see what was out there. And a lot of them are existing products that are actually flying.

[Lukas]:  I think if you look at IFEC and Digital services, you know, the speaking from the passenger perspective, I think the bottom line that, that can be said is that people want to be connected in the air, period.  And they want to have the same quality as on the ground. It's very demanding from a, if you know the technical background, which Corinne you do better than I do, but it's very demanding from the technical side. And still the passengers want it. And I think much of this IFEC and Digital Services segment circles around to how make it possible to connect people in the air at high speeds with a great quality that, you know doesn't drop out mid-flight when you're, for example, flying out onto the sea. So, this is a big aspect of the work that we see in this segment, and a lot of things connect to it. Once you get to the core of this question. For example, the reason why we expanded the category to digital services is because we see more and more entries in the segment that are focusing not on the passenger, but on the crew or connecting the crew with the passengers. So, if you already have the bandwidth on board, if you already have the connectivity, you can use it also to communicate between the crew and passengers, between the crew and the ground, maybe even between the passenger and the ground. If you look at flight connections, rebooking processes, when passengers are still in the air, all these aspects become an option to, to really realistically think about once you have the connectivity and once you have the bandwidth and we're getting closer to there, we're making progress with every year. This is something that that's really reflected, I think, at the awards that you see this progress over time in terms of hardware solutions that are being entered. But you also see the software solutions being entered that come along with it. And I think it's really an interesting trend to see how much this still evolves around expanding the bandwidth within the expanding connectivity because it's one of the main drivers of the passengers that they demand from the airlines.

[Corinne]:  Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with the dependence on connectivity. It's not just about the connectivity system and that equipment. It's how can that be used to bring benefit and improvements in efficiency in other areas. And I'm just looking at a couple that I've seen on the list of, for example, an entry by Stelia Aerospace. It's a crew service application, so they're leveraging technology and connectivity. I also see SkyPulse, a software based system for live IFE data tracking. It's an existing product by Delta flight products, again, using that connectivity to help the operations and maintenance. So, it really makes sense that IFEC has now incorporated the digital services component and it's kind of even going beyond the passenger and starting to see elements of the connected aircraft and the benefits that can bring to a connected aircraft and seeing products stemming from that. So, I think that's really exciting. And it's not just about historically, and maybe a few years ago, seatback and just, you know, antennas and that kind of thing. Also, what I thought was really interesting was an application that wasn't based really on a hard product nor a soft product. It was an entry for a certification program as being, and I understand the concepts and the ideas behind it are innovative and potentially driving change in the industry. So, are you able to share any insight into, you know, it's not a typical product that we have seen in the past.

[Lukas]:  It is, it is, it is more of a as you mentioned, a certification process. And I can tell you this was an entry which we heavily discussed in the pre-selection committee because it is not the typical entry that we see, which is a product or a concept. Um, and we ended up saying, okay, we will give this to the shortlist because it shouldn't be us in the pre-selection committee to decide whether this is, whether this belongs to the Crystal Cabin Award or not. So, it will be interesting to see what the turnout of judges is, but that's kind of the process side. The internal comment I have on this. Generally speaking, about what this entry is about, I think this is also a development which is really interesting to see in our, in our industry is that with these novel products and segments opening up, you need to update and work on the certification standards because they still have to be defined and to have something certified to eventually bring it into the cabin as a serial product. So how do you get to that? And we see this with the connectivity side and the hardware that belongs to that. It's a real issue also on the sustainability side, you know, which materials that are more lightweight, that are more sustainable can be certified. And if yes, how all these things come into play, where standards have to be redefined and standards have to be designed, it's also relevant to the accessibility aspect. You know, if you, for example, want to get a wheelchair on board, you have an innovative concept for that. Is this something that, you know, complies with the standards? Is this something that we can certify? So, this is a very relevant discussion that we see and we see this in many different segments. Another point that I think we see in the passenger experience industry where many players are working together on because this is not something you can solve as one stakeholder alone. It's not something the FAA, for example, can do for themselves or an airline can do for themselves. You need everybody involved to eventually get to the point where you have the standard certified.

[Corinne]:  Interesting you should say that, because I was looking at IFEC related kind of entries. But in looking at, you know, other entries, there are some similar in nature, like the seat component part marking, including recycling reference code, an entry by UNUM aircraft seating. So, it kind of not so much of a hard product or a soft product technology, it's more offering benefits to, for tracking and compliance. So not something that I think we've typically seen. So, I think it's great that, you know, these kinds of initiatives and these kinds of innovation because I think got me thinking, innovation isn't just about something you can touch and feel. We need to innovate how we think and we need to innovate around our processes. And I'm asking myself, could this be a trend for future, better ways of actually doing things and more innovative ways?

[Lukas]:  Yes, absolutely. And I think the innovation process is still changing as well, especially in aerospace. And we see this, for example, in Hamburg, the ZAL, the centre of Applied aeronautical Research, where we have 30 partners working together in a building with lots of windows without fences and barbed wire. And everybody can see what the other party is working on, you know, and gets to, to chat in the canteen. And this is it's working really well. But it is when this was opened in 2016, it was a huge shift in paradigm. What the innovation process in aviation has been in the decades before. You know, coming from a military mindset where you lock yourself in to work on something innovative in a building without windows, with barbed wires around, with cameras and security checks. This is a Cold War mindset that is probably intimidating to a lot of the people who are the younger generation now. And it won't help us to get to the goals we've set for ourselves. It won't help us to bring this industry forward. You know, if you look at the tech spirit that Silicon Valley has, has grown in the past, you know, it's been always about sharing your ideas and open innovation process where things are discussed from square one onwards. You know, hey, I have this idea. What do you think of it? You know, who could be part of it? And we see this in aviation come together as well. And I think this is, it's actually great to see that not only the airlines work together with their partners, their suppliers, but they're also actively including further parties, you know, even up to bringing in their customers, their passengers, their crews, redesigning the innovation process around this. I think it's a very healthy development that we see. And a lot of the innovations that we already see are coming out of such a process. And I think that's wonderful to see.

[Corinne]:  Yeah, agree wholeheartedly. Very exciting times. And just a couple very quick questions. So, it's nice to see a lot, Eco-friendly innovations on the list as well, as well as premium comfort. Just on the note of premium comfort, just an idea I wanted to put out there. I'm seeing a real focus on premium comfort and obviously we're seeing the economy comfort coming from the Skynest, you know, the Air New Zealand. Could this focus on comfort in all cabins be an indication of what's to come in light of what I call marathon flying? We know there's going to be 20-hour flights from Australia to the UK. The Project Sunrise that Qantas has been working on. We know Air New Zealand's flying from New Zealand to New York. And it's not just countries that are kind of, you know, Australia has always been far away from everywhere, but you could argue New York's far away from Sydney. So, it could be a US based carrier looking at that. So, do you feel that focus on premium comfort that we're seeing in all the cabins has to do with potentially more marathon flying?

[Lukas]:  In some aspects, yes. I think when you're looking at doing a London to Sydney nonstop, you obviously have to think about, you know, how to keep the passenger happy in a way that he does it again and doesn't, you know, come out of the aircraft in Sydney and kisses the ground and says never again in the future, in the future I'll go back via Singapore. So, you know, this is of course due to the technical advancements of the aircraft, this is something that the passenger experience has to respond to and the interiors industry has to respond to. But I think another aspect is the general trend in society to be more aware of your own well-being and that people are more demanding and more aware of their needs in terms of well-being physically and mentally that they want to have in their lives, not only about the hardware products, about the seats, but you have your coffee, not with regular milk, but with soy milk or oat milk and everything else related to this. So, people are more aware of their wellbeing than in the past. And a lot of the passenger experience innovation in a lot of the interiors innovation that you see out there, such as mood lighting and chronobiological lighting as a step upward from that response to this request for wellbeing. I think this really belongs together, but it's something that is relevant to all segments of the cabin. It's not only relevant to the premium passenger, of course you'll have more offerings there, but it's also relevant to the economy class passenger, and this is why airlines like Air New Zealand, who offer so many ultra-long-haul flights, respond to this with a product like Skynest.

[Corinne]:  Yeah, I agree. I was actually having a conversation earlier today about overall cabins and actually said that we see a lot of innovation in front cabins and an incredible experience. But I really think in my opinion, the economy cabin or the economy passenger is very neglected in terms of comfort. I see some really clever solutions and opportunities to try and make it happen, but in my mind, I think down the track, the one that's going to win the race is the one that's going to not neglect the economy passenger and really look after them in comfort and not just amenities. And I think with Skynest, that seems to be a step in the right direction. I think at time of recording, I haven't seen the Qantas economy product for Project Sunrise. Obviously, it's coming out of Oceania, that part of the world, because everywhere is far from Australia and New Zealand, you know, it'll be very, very interesting to see that and how it evolves with what I call marathon flying, because the thought of 20 hours, even in a front cabin, to be honest with you, I've done a 16 hour flight. It was great. But you get to a point where you just want to get on the ground. But I was lucky, I was in a suite, but had I been at the back of the plane on that flight, I think I would have just been a lot more worse for wear. But anyway, so just to wrap up, this is really quite a really great insight into some of the themes and very exciting to see that shortlist and a lot of excitement and build up towards the big event in June in Hamburg. For the audience and for those, you know that are on the shortlist that are going to be really, really excited to see their name on it and then keeping their fingers crossed to be on the in the finals. But can you just give us a high-level overview of where do we go from here after Monday, the shortlist is announced and then what do we do?

[Lukas]:  Absolutely. So, from here the bulk of the work will go to the judging panel who will have to give out the scores for the main rounds. So, for all the entries in the shortlist, all the judges judge all the entries so we don't have different groups. It's open to everyone and it's designed this way. We will have the finalists for all the categories published around a month before the Hamburg show, so that will be the beginning of May. Then you will see, you know, who has made the top three in every category and then on the first night of the Aircraft Interiors Expo, we will have the prize giving ceremony. On the day before actually on the Monday we will have the final viewing process where every finalist has to give a pitch presentation in person in front of the judging panel in Hamburg. It's always very intense but very fun. And to, to really see, you know, the difference between a slide deck and the real thing, so to speak. It's always very much liked by everyone. And so then even, even us as the Project office, we don't know until the night before who will be the winners. And then it is unveiled at the, at the prize giving ceremony, which is taking place at the Chamber of Commerce and the Stock Exchange Hall this year, again in, in Hamburg. So a really beautiful 19th century building with a lot of atmosphere. You can all look forward to that. And then on day two of the Aircraft Interiors Expo, we will have again, the winner's presentation on the show floor. So everybody who is part of the Aircraft Interiors Expo can connect with the winners and hear their presentations again and see their products. And I think this will be in a nutshell, the schedule for the rest of the season here.

[Corinne]:  It's a really exciting timing. And just in terms of the pitch to the jury, it's one of my favourite, actually favourite parts of the process because as you say, you read all these claims in the deck, you can only make your decisions and voting on what is presented to you in a PowerPoint. You don't have the ability to ask questions until they're in front of you and they're pitching in the finals. My advice to those that are lucky to get through to the finals come prepared because the questions, and I'm just one of, I think about 30 jury members, they've all got different backgrounds. I'm just honoured to be sitting in a room with such highly skilled people in the aircraft interior. It's just amazing to see them in action and the questions, they're thorough. So, anyone lucky enough to get through to the finals, my advice would be, come prepared. Would you agree?

[Lukas]:  Absolutely. Everybody listening to this, listen to the judge. Listen to Corinne.

[Corinne]:  Okay. So just also to clarify for our listeners all the entries that we may have discussed as again, want to recap that, I've just looked at the publicly available information, which as of Monday we'll start to see a lot of the journalists and all the aviation publications writing more about it. And I think some do interviews with some of the, the entrants as well. This was just off the publicly released information. And any entries I might have called out is just from my initial scan. I have not reviewed, done a deep dive. And it's just for the purposes of looking at some key themes that have come through at this stage. But it's still very early on. Things will change. As I said, there's like 29 that are going to sit in this room and, and go through this in detail. And then those finalists will have the opportunity to present their case. And we look forward to having the winners announced in Hamburg.

[Lukas]:  Thank you so much, Corinne.

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